Curse

DarkSpirit · Aug 17, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

reapplying > extending in most cases

tho, it -can- be useful in a few select cases

unfortunately in the op's build, that is not one of those few select cases

I disagree that reapplying > extending, because you are extending ALL the conditions on the target plus spreading them to nearby targets at the same time. If the conditions are already extended indefinitely, there is no need to keep reapplying all of them.

But I would prefer to use it for extending overpowered conditions that are usually rare and last for short durations, rather than extending the common ones. This probably requires a team build.

Conditions worth extending indefinitely are Daze, Blind, and Burning.

Tyla · Aug 17, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

The main idea of the build is fun in the first place, although the enemies will still die as conditions aren't the only form of offense unless you're running like 2 conditions on every party member.

If I was seriously considering a proper kill everything now build, I would go Cryway or take shitloads of physicals. I also wouldn't be using two skills for crippling, but skills like YMLaD which offers KD and cripple, and other skills for it.

Although with Mandragorway I would be using this instead of it's hex counterpart. (Fevered Dreams)

snaek · Aug 17, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

wow i jus did testing on the master of dmg...

[extend conditions] no longer extends the condition on the targeted foe

only the durations of the conditions spread to nearby foes r extended

this means it is useless on boss foes...
which is one of teh only reasons i see for extending a condition

so its only use is now jus an [epidemic] with a bigger range

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I disagree that reapplying > extending, because you are extending ALL the conditions on the target plus spreading them to nearby targets at the same time. If the conditions are already extended indefinitely, there is no need to keep reapplying all of them.

unless the target dies, or the condition gets removed through a skill

the first is extremely common in pve
and the 2nd extremely common in pvp

Moloch Vein · Aug 17, 2008, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

What would be great is, to be able to indefinitely extend Daze and Blind too.

Ask and you shall receive...

Now we're talking folks, now we're talking...

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Any/Me_EC_Motormouth

Moloch Vein · Aug 17, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Since snaek is the main person criticizing this concept I will attempt to show why he is wrong. This is nothing personal.

Snaek claims that Weaken Armor and Plague Sending is already AoE, and that Enfeebling Blood is superior to Enfeeble.

Weaken Armor and Plague Sending is Adjacent. Extend Conditions extends to Nearby range. Nearby is a lot bigger range than Adjacent.

Enfeebling Blood carries a 10% sacrifice, and casts in 1 second compared to 1/4.

The EC elite, moreover, can obviously be used to extend any condition whether from you or anyone else.

Snaek tells us that EC no longer extends the duration of the condition on the target foe. This is of no major consequence. EC has a 5s recharge. After 5 seconds, you target another foe, and presto, the foul-smelling poisonous friend is back to its original recipient. This is only a problem with only one or very few foes left, and then you've won anyway.

DarkSpirit · Aug 17, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

unless the target dies, or the condition gets removed through a skill

the first is extremely common in pve
and the 2nd extremely common in pvp

You are forgeting that you are extending to nearby targets also. If the target dies, pick a nearby target and start extending again, repeat until the mob dies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Ask and you shall receive...

Now we're talking folks, now we're talking...

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Any/Me_EC_Motormouth

Cathod posted something like that here before. I doubt that build would be able to extend daze from Technobabble indefinitely, especially at only 12 inspiration. Technobabble daze is capped at 5s at max asuran rank. You need at least about 8s, perfect timing, and enough energy, to keep daze up. You have to wait 5s for Extend Conditions to recharge and all.

upier · Aug 17, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

I don't understand why you'd want to waste your elite on extending conditions.
In PvE monsters die to fast for it to matter

This is what I am a fan off.

sickle of carnage · Aug 17, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

[Skill]Epidemic[/skill]Anyone?

Moloch Vein · Aug 17, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are forgeting that you are extending to nearby targets also. If the target dies, pick a nearby target and start extending again, repeat until the mob dies.

Cathod posted something like that here before. I doubt that build would be able to extend daze from Technobabble indefinitely, especially at only 12 inspiration. Technobabble daze is capped at 5s at max asuran rank. You need at least about 8s, perfect timing, and enough energy, to keep daze up. You have to wait 5s for Extend Conditions to recharge and all.

EC will have no problem making the Daze duration infinite. The duration of the first Daze (from Technobabble) is 5*1.33~7 seconds. The duration of the EC, if cast directly after the Technobabble, is 6*1.33*1.81~15 seconds. (One second passes from application of Technobabble to application of EC due to aftercast.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sickle of carnage

[Skill]Epidemic[/skill]Anyone?

That's like comparing an atomic bomb to a peashooter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

I don't understand why you'd want to waste your elite on extending conditions. In PvE monsters die to fast for it to matter

Yup, and surely spreading the Deep Wound, Bleeding, Cracked Armor and Poison that helped the monster die in the first place is completely useless too... next, please...

[DE] · Aug 17, 2008, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Yup, and surely spreading the Deep Wound, Bleeding, Cracked Armor and Poison that helped the monster die in the first place is completely useless too... next, please...

Ugh.... EC is a WASTE of an elite. spreading the deep wound, bleeding, etc is done by Plague Sending - which can be put on a much better bar than that. The whole point I was trying to make was that you don't NEED to lengthen those conditions because the monsters are dead before they even come off. If you'd be less dense and would stop trying to defend a fail build just because it's 'your' build then maybe you'd understand that.

Tyla · Aug 17, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

I completely understand where you're coming from [DE], although I myself love seeing loads of conditions all over the place, which was the motivation of me making a thread of a few builds based around Fevered Dreams for condition spam as much as possible.

I can only agree with you in terms of effectiveness, however.

Sleeper Service · Aug 17, 2008, 09:20 PM // 21:20

[skill]Edge of Extinction[/skill] (optional), [skill]Lacerate[/skill], [skill]Pestilence[/skill], [skill]Toxicity[/skill].

and

[skill]fragility[/skill].

been using condition heavy team builds for literally YEARS and ho hum looky here now people want to play for "fun" instead of "efficiency".

if you have space [skill]virulence[/skill] on a hero too (though its best to carry frag and viru yourself).

no need to spec heavily into spirits, they last long enough.

even works on some AB maps (not all) as the range is tremendous and people are too stupid to stop and think about just why there is so much frikin' degen.

the only thing that stops me from making an absolutely HORRIBLE condition team build is the 3 hero limit, at the moment we have to contend ourselves with using only a fraction of the total synergy possible at a time.

Tyla · Aug 17, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Minion Bomber, using Infuse Condition and "It's Just a Flesh Wound!".

Ranger throwing up spirits such as Pestiwhatever and other condition shit.

I found it fun, until they changed IJFW.

DarkSpirit · Aug 17, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

EC will have no problem making the Daze duration infinite. The duration of the first Daze (from Technobabble) is 5*1.33~7 seconds. The duration of the EC, if cast directly after the Technobabble, is 6*1.33*1.81~15 seconds. (One second passes from application of Technobabble to application of EC due to aftercast.)

I dont have the equipment to test this but if it works that way then Silencing mod would be extremely overpowered to extend daze by 33% each time you cast every 5s.

Moloch Vein · Aug 17, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Ugh.... EC is a WASTE of an elite. spreading the deep wound, bleeding, etc is done by Plague Sending - which can be put on a much better bar than that. The whole point I was trying to make was that you don't NEED to lengthen those conditions because the monsters are dead before they even come off. If you'd be less dense and would stop trying to defend a fail build just because it's 'your' build then maybe you'd understand that.

Plague Sending spreads adjacent. EC spreads nearby.

Plague Sending spreads what you receive. EC spreads everything.

Plague Sending spreads with remaining duration. EC spreads short-term conditions turning them infinite, making monsters suffer them before they are even targetted.

This is not me trying to defend a "fail build". This is you making a fool of yourself with a supreme display of unwarranted conceit.

snaek · Aug 17, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Since snaek is the main person criticizing this concept I will attempt to show why he is wrong. This is nothing personal.

Snaek claims that Weaken Armor and Plague Sending is already AoE, and that Enfeebling Blood is superior to Enfeeble.

Weaken Armor and Plague Sending is Adjacent. Extend Conditions extends to Nearby range. Nearby is a lot bigger range than Adjacent.

Enfeebling Blood carries a 10% sacrifice, and casts in 1 second compared to 1/4.

The EC elite, moreover, can obviously be used to extend any condition whether from you or anyone else.

Snaek tells us that EC no longer extends the duration of the condition on the target foe. This is of no major consequence. EC has a 5s recharge. After 5 seconds, you target another foe, and presto, the foul-smelling poisonous friend is back to its original recipient. This is only a problem with only one or very few foes left, and then you've won anyway.

yes, their ranges r not as big
but does that constitute wasting an elite slot for it?

and since the original build was a hero build
they dun have the brains to target properly
so u can not say that they can use it for extending conditions
only for spreading

so if the build is now ran by a player
(clearly thats where ur headed wit teh new build posted0
that changes quite a few of the things i have said thus far, regarding the first build

the new build is better
but mostly only cuz of the pve skills

my main critique of the first build
was that the skill conditions used were already a decent nuff aoe range
and the conditions r ones that really dun need to be extended

the new build has better conditions
mainly dazed, and deepwound
(altho [technobabble] is already aoe)

and while this cant be run on a hero anymore
it is on the rite track of spreading/extending "key" conditions

but if u want spreadable deepwound.... try [wounding strike]

snaek · Aug 17, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Plague Sending spreads adjacent. EC spreads nearby.

Plague Sending spreads what you receive. EC spreads everything.

Plague Sending spreads with remaining duration. EC spreads short-term conditions turning them infinite, making monsters suffer them before they are even targetted.

This is not me trying to defend a "fail build". This is you making a fool of yourself with a supreme display of unwarranted conceit.

im pretty sure that he -knows- these things
but despite of these so-called "advantages"
it is still a waste

similar to e-denial in pve
(tho not as bad)

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 17, 2008, 10:16 PM // 22:16

I've been wanting to try somethin like this in DoA where huge mobs tend to bunch up very often. EC builds definitely have potential, but they're not something I'd run in an H/H team since you'd be "forced" to bring phys classes to trigger the Daze, and I usually try to avoid using phys heroes/henches.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

What would be great is, to be able to indefinitely extend Daze and Blind too.

Technobabble (max rank) + 12 Insp + 33% Daze mod. Easy.

Get an air ele for the blind.

[DE] · Aug 17, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Plague Sending spreads adjacent. EC spreads nearby.

Plague Sending spreads what you receive. EC spreads everything.

Plague Sending spreads with remaining duration. EC spreads short-term conditions turning them infinite, making monsters suffer them before they are even targetted.

I understand that you REALLY want to use EC in some sort of viable build, but come on, it still is a bad elite. Wasting an entire hero bar just so you can extend and spread some conditions is just blah. I'm not sure if you actuall read this or not but - it doesn't matter in PvE because monsters die in 2 seconds anyways. Maybe if you'd post a team hero build with actual synergy people would be more open to it rather than just posting a single build and claiming it's good while defending it to the bitter end.

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 17, 2008, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

it doesn't matter in PvE because monsters die in 2 seconds anyways.

If you're doing easy NM areas, then suuuure. Load up the missiles, sir, were about to win PvE!

....HM and elite areas do exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

Maybe if you'd post a team hero build with actual synergy people would be more open to it rather than just posting a single build and claiming it's good while defending it to the bitter end.

Yeah maybe you're right actually. The Campfire and Hero parts of this forum have many clueless PvE'ers that need the builds to be spoon fed to them. Now I'm not saying it's bad to be inexperienced cause we all were at some point, but when someone's trying mindlessly dis something without a clue, then yes there's a problem there.

I honestly wouldn't use EC on a hero, but when it comes to a human player with EC + Technobabble + Ymlad + other stuff, you'd have to be pretty ignorant about many parts of the game to actually call it a "waste".